[Podcast] Industry Spotlight | Dave Turano – Executive Coach at JCE Consulting – Redefining Success in Staffing and Recruiting

In this episode of The Full Desk Experience, Host Kortney Harmon and guest Dave Turano explore the significant challenges and transformations within the staffing and recruiting industry, particularly in the context of technological advancements and shifting business priorities.

Dave shares his critical insights on the misuse of AI technology in recruitment, emphasizing the constant need for human connection and effective communication despite technological progress. With a rich background as a leadership and sales coach, Dave also discusses the perils of outdated leadership beliefs, the vital role of personal development, and the pressing need for industry leaders to foster genuine relationships and confidence within their teams.

Join host Kortney Harmon as we uncover how leaders can adapt to these changing times by redefining success and reorienting strategies to focus more on human-centric values and less on arbitrary metrics. Stay tuned to glean actionable advice from Dave on nurturing team dynamics, enhancing candidate experience, and ensuring continuous learning in the pursuit of business excellence.

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Dave Turano [00:00:00]:
Two days ago I had a company call me and they've got phenomenal technology. They've outsourced a lot of their work, all sorts of tools, but they have a 58 to one ratio between interview and hire. So even though they have all the technology doing the dirty work, in the end the result is terrible. So I think the bottom line is AI tools are here and they can be effective if we use them right. If we use them to maybe streamline some of the redundancies, like whether it's, you know, helping to formulate an email or whatever it is, to mass communicate with an audience. But the reality is, is the best communication is going to be with those that give you one to one time. And if AI isn't leading you to one to one time where you can build a relationship, I think it's, it's not going to work. But the smart people are using it the right way and they're using it to get into a conversation faster so that they can build their relationships and commitments faster.

Dave Turano [00:00:53]:
That's how I see it.

Kortney Harmon [00:00:55]:
Hi, I'm Kortney Harmon, director of industry relations at Crelate. This is the industry spotlight, a series of the full desk experience, a curlate original podcast. In this series, we will talk with top leaders and influencers who are shaping the talent industry, shining a light on popular trends, the latest news and the stories that laid the groundwork for their success. Welcome back to another episode of the full Desk Experience. Industry Spotlight welcome to the full Desk Experience podcast. I'm your host, Kortney Harmon, and today we have a very special guest joining us, Dave Toronto. Dave is the founder of JCE Consulting, a coaching and training firm that really helps business professionals strengthen their leadership, communication and sales skills. With decades of experience working with individuals and teams across various industries, Dave's really built a reputation for his no nonsense approach to the ability to empower people to communicate with confidence.

Kortney Harmon [00:01:59]:
So in today's episode, we're going to be diving into the talent industry, the biggest challenges facing executives in our industry and really how we can gain invaluable insights from Dave and what it takes to drive success. So without further ado, Dave, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited to share your perspective on, you know, just executives in our industry because we had obviously had a wonderful conversation last week. We'll just continue that today. Tell our listeners a little bit more about you and what I might not have covered.

Dave Turano [00:02:31]:
I think you covered it all, Kortney. I appreciate you having me on. I don't know how much detail you want on me. I don't want to put anybody to sleep here. As far as my experience goes, you covered it. I got back. I got into the staffing industry back in 97, and although I'm not in it now, I still actively coach and train leadership professionals, sales professionals, and recruiting professionals in the space so we can fill in the blanks on anything else you want to know. Personally, I'm happy to cover anything.

Kortney Harmon [00:02:56]:
I love it. And you have the podcast cut through the noise.

Dave Turano [00:02:58]:
Cut through the noise. Started it in 2019, June 1. I think 2019 was my first episode and I don't know, there's probably about 140 episodes. You can find it on Apple, Amazon, watch YouTube. And I had the chance to speak with you a couple weeks ago, and I've had a lot of interesting guests over the years, so that's a fantastic hobby. I love the fact that my wife made me do it for you. Coming up on five years. Now that I think about it.

Kortney Harmon [00:03:22]:
Look at that. We make these and these men in our lives do such amazing things. I love that she. Oh, I love it. So obviously, you've coached, you've trained, you've been there, really, and talking to these business professionals in the talent industry. Talk to me about some of the biggest challenges you see facing executives in the staffing and recruiting industry today.

Dave Turano [00:03:44]:
I'd say the biggest problem with them, as in the staffing industry and outside the staffing industry. The reason I say that is a lot of my clients are outside the staffing industry. The biggest challenge they often face is just communication with their existing teams. It sounds pretty generic, but it's true. The one thing, though, that I would say that seems to impact all of their teams, and a lot of the work I've done is, is with the IT staffing companies. That's where I come from. That's my background. But the challenge that I've noticed that their teams are facing is there's a lack of communication with their candidates, there's a lack of communication with their clients.

Dave Turano [00:04:20]:
And although technology has evolved exponentially over the years since you and I probably got into the business, I mean, when I got into the business, we were hand delivering resumes and faxing resumes. And today, with all of the tools available to us, we can just right through our systems and never meet anybody. But I would say there's a lack of relationship and a lack of control in the relationship that seems to be plaguing most of the companies. I don't know what you're seeing from your side, but I would say that's one thing that's been underestimated.

Kortney Harmon [00:04:48]:
I agree with you. Now, how do you think AI is going to play a role in this whole communication thing? I mean, it's great. It's this shiny new object. It helps us. I mean, there's its pros, but how do you think that's going to impact the lack of communication we already have today?

Dave Turano [00:05:02]:
It'll either exacerbate it. The thing about AI is it's here to stay. It's not going away. I'm not here to say it shouldn't be here, just like technology, I'm not here to say that shouldn't be here either. It is what it is. It's just that it's never going to replace the connection one human being has with another human being. And if you think it is, you're going to lose. I think that.

Dave Turano [00:05:23]:
I talked to a company three days ago. About two days ago, I had a company call me and they've got phenomenal technology, outsourced a lot of their, lot of their work, all sorts of tools, but they have a 58 to one ratio between interview and hire. So even though they have all the technology doing the dirty work, in the end the result is terrible. So I think the bottom line is AI tools are here and they can be effective if we use them right. If we use them to maybe streamline some of the redundancies, whether it's helping to formulate an email or whatever it is, to mass communicate with an audience. But the reality is, is the best communication is going to be with those that give you one to one time. And if AI isn't leading you to one to one time where you can build a relationship, I think it's not going to work. But the smart people are using it the right way and they're using it to get into a conversation faster so that they can build their relationships and commitments faster.

Dave Turano [00:06:21]:
That's how I see it. What's your take on that?

Kortney Harmon [00:06:23]:
I'll give you my take in a minute. You said 58 to one. I want to know what your response was to these people and how they should be adjusting to that.

Dave Turano [00:06:30]:
This is the issue, is that the staffing industry, and my response is it's always been a people business and that's what my response was to this individual. And you can use all the tools you want, you can have the CRM on steroids and AI until the cows come home. You can mass communicate with anybody you want, you can post whatever you want, you can chat with whoever you want. Sales navigator on LinkedIn. I don't care what it is. The bottom line is the industry, in my mind, has lost its way because it thinks, or it's being convinced by tech. Maybe that technology is going to replace people. It's just not.

Dave Turano [00:07:10]:
It will assist people, it will make things easier, but it won't replace the relationship. And in this case, with the 58 to one, it's. They assume that the technology and all the speed and efficiency of technology is going to replace the human or the human connection or the understanding or the nuance. It just won't. And that's why you have the 58 to one ratio. I'll go off on one more tangent. The best people, when I was in the business, I got out of the business and zero nine. So now I'm a dinosaur, talking about what it was like when I was growing up and it snowed every day.

Kortney Harmon [00:07:42]:
3Ft, blah, blah, blah, walked hill uphill both ways. Yeah.

Dave Turano [00:07:47]:
So that's the risk I run in comparing anything to the past. The reality is I'm still very much engaged in the present with these companies. I have yet to run into a client or a prospect in the staffing space that produced what we produced when we were in the business. With all of the technology advancements, the average technology recruiter and salesperson does not have a lot of people billing. A good one might have 20 to 30 people billing. Maybe the great ones have 40 plus, but they're so few and far between. In the old world I was at, we had lots and lots of people with 30, 40, 50, 60 people billing, and I just don't see that anymore, even with all the advancements in technology. So I'll shut up for a second.

Kortney Harmon [00:08:36]:
No, I think it's great. I think the AI is there to help us get there faster. I think you're right. I think we're losing the human touch. I don't think we have this preconceived notion in our head that it's going to get us there faster. But I think I've, what I've seen from people is we want the easy button. It's the easy button, but we're. Maybe we're not thinking about it in like a holistic view.

Kortney Harmon [00:08:56]:
We're not putting them a part of our process or it's just a one off situation or susie saw this really cool chat GPT thing that she's implemented. It's working great for her, but maybe it's not across the board. It's not something that we can use as a new processes, a new foundation I'm going to go on my tangent for a minute. So often we get to the point where I like to call them, our organizations do shadow processes. And then in a shadow process, your top performers, you know what, they're excelling. We don't know why they're excelling, but they're doing things outside of the system. We're not measuring them. We don't have a good insight of how our business is running.

Kortney Harmon [00:09:32]:
But guess what? They're going on the back dirt road figuring out how to get there, but we're not getting there quicker. We're not being able to replicate it. And it's really not helping our organization scale and grow. And our executives are sitting here thinking, well, how do I get everybody to be like Bobby? He's my top performer. How do I get that? Well, you need to replicate his process. And if that's AI, if that's implementing that into day to day, great. These tools are going to help us get there faster, but we need to figure out how. How can AI help me in this process today? Continually in this process, every day.

Kortney Harmon [00:10:06]:
But I'm like you, I want to see the return. I did a recent podcast with Maurice Fuller and he said the new standard of automations is 200 automations per recruiting firm.

Dave Turano [00:10:18]:
Okay, so talk to me about that.

Kortney Harmon [00:10:20]:
He didn't get into detail, but it could be like, think about like your business development, your referrals, your references. It's easy to scale to 200, but what does that look like? I look at a lot of the firms that I've talked to and they're like, they're dabbling. Yeah. They're like, okay, we have five automations that are happening, but is it getting you the return? Are you getting, you're seeing the ROI? Or is it just for process sake? Is it just noise? Because I'm literally opening up my email every day and having 57 more junk emails in my email. That's noise. And the people that I'm getting, the relationships with are the people that I'm taking the time, I'm having a conversation, and it's, it's much deeper. Like you're saying 100%.

Dave Turano [00:11:00]:
I think the problem with it's not that the technology is a problem and it's not that the data is the problem. The data's always been in this taboo thing as well, because companies. I'll probably come up with answers to your first question more as we go along. But one of the other challenges that I see with executives in the staffing space as well as other industries by the way, is that they weaponize the data or they weaponize the technology unintentionally, by the way, where we're going to start implementing this using this tool, measuring that, tracking this. And then all of a sudden you give an entire organization the excuse to say, well, it's not about us anymore. It's all about the metrics, it's all about the numbers. They don't care about the people. We're nothing more than widgets.

Dave Turano [00:11:42]:
They're going to replace us. All this happy, you know what? And it's because the manner in which the message is delivered is weak. Instead of the bottom line is we all look into a mirror every day. That's data. If you want to see what your hair looks like, mine's gray and receding. But I at least want to know what I look like before I leave the house. That shows me who I am and what I look like. That's what data is, you know what I mean? And so there's another issue there, and I don't mean to stray and get off of AI, but the manner in which companies introduce tools to people I think is broken in that they impose the tool, hey, we just got this.

Dave Turano [00:12:23]:
We're going to use that. We're going to start measuring this instead of helping people understand why they would do it. For example, like the whole dial thing has been an issue for years. We want x amount of dials, we want 100 dials, 200, whatever the hell they want. Right? The dials don't make a difference. Just like the email blast. We want you to send out 200 emails a week or 7000 emails a week. Irrelevant.

Dave Turano [00:12:45]:
Oh, how much time did you spend on them? I want to see that. You've averaged 20 minutes per phone call. Who cares? But there are really well intentioned executives that think this stuff matters and they're driving this thought process into their people and it's a total miss. I always looked at it from the perspective of, and I've told this story a million times. Years ago when I was in the business, I used to track my own interactions, not because the company required it, because I just wanted to know how many people that I actually talked to today. We didn't have the same tools, so we had the phone and email. I would just make check marks. Oh, I talked to Kortney today and I'd make a check.

Dave Turano [00:13:25]:
She actually spoke to me or she responded to my email and said this. And then what I found over time and I did this for about two years before our database was really up. This is a long time ago. And I realized that as long as I interacted with 15 people every day, I made a fair amount of money. As long as I did that, my money was good. And anything I did to exceed that, the money I made was great. And so nobody told me to talk to 15 people a day. And I've had people over the years say, well, that's not enough people.

Dave Turano [00:13:57]:
I'm like, well, it was for me. I had a hell of a lot more people billing than you do. So it's interesting right now. Like, you got these arbitrary. We need to see 200 dials a week. We need to see for what? What? So they could all get, like, deleted. So I get another example, by the way, and I'll shut up after this because I want to hear your take.

Kortney Harmon [00:14:14]:
I love it. Give it to me.

Dave Turano [00:14:15]:
I had a. When I was in sales, in staffing, one of my managers came down to visit me. I was living down south at the time, and we had a. We had just opened a small, little remote satellite office, and she came down to visit me, and I had a whiteboard with my activity because that's what I did. She didn't make me do it. And it was May of 2003, and my stats for the year were up on the board. My interviews, my placements, etcetera. And she looks at me and she goes, hey, darlin', what happened in May? And I said, what do you mean? She goes, well, you had 26 interviews, and you.

Dave Turano [00:14:50]:
Only five people went to work. That sucks. And I'm thinking to myself, but five people went to work. She goes, your hit ratio was like, 19%. That's terrible. And she goes, aren't you prepping these people before they interview with your clients? And I sat there like an idiot, and I said, no, that's what the recruiters are supposed to do. And that was like, the biggest mistake I could have made was blaming recruiting for not prepping my candidates. And she just said, listen to me.

Dave Turano [00:15:17]:
She said, that's an inexcusable ratio. And I expect that you prep every single candidate before an interview. And then literally, from that point on, that's what I did. And then the hit ratio was always 50% or better, as long as I prepped 50% or better. And I could also screen people out. So I'm just thinking about data and best practices, which, by the way, still apply today.

Kortney Harmon [00:15:38]:
This is a good question I ask a lot of people because as working at MRI and through franchise ownership and seeing how people were holding their teams accountable, you know, they have their chipboards. I'm a person, I like to know my stats, but I think that comes from my sports background. I want to beat myself. I don't necessarily want to. Yeah, of course I want to beat someone else, too, but I want to be able to beat myself better myself. I saw so many offices there, and then the following organization I was at that were just holding numbers as arbitrary as big brother as well. This is what we have to do to make our system better, aka, it's going to create revenue. But in reality, the process that was broken is one that was on the back end.

Kortney Harmon [00:16:19]:
There was actually a term, it was called talent in chair. And I did coaching with the people in the organization. And I'm like, well, what does this mean to you? Because our leadership team was judging this one talent in chair metric. To be like, this number needs to go up. And if this number goes up, this equals more revenue. And it's like, okay, that's great. And out of twelve coaching appointments in one week, six of those twelve had different answers for what the definition was for talent and chair. So these executives were basing this number that was changing their business that there are people needed to do, but they all had different definitions of it in the long term.

Kortney Harmon [00:16:55]:
And it was like, it was really trying to understand a lot of the times. The reason it happened was we had people that were top producers. They moved into management, they didn't understand how to manage, they didn't understand the training that went into it, and they didn't understand how to hold their people accountable to have those conversations on a weekly. Therefore, we were in that position. Do you see the same thing from outside of talent as well? The industry of, you know, you have your top producers. They did well. Guess what? You're in management. Congratulations.

Kortney Harmon [00:17:22]:
I'm not going to give you no training. Go on your leadership route. Do you see that across the board?

Dave Turano [00:17:26]:
I do, I do. But I do have some additional comments on that. Okay. I was considered a top producer and I got into management. So I get, I get all. I take it all personally. Personally.

Kortney Harmon [00:17:35]:
Oh, sorry.

Dave Turano [00:17:36]:
No, no, no, no. I'm good with it. And I had a great team. My team all produced for the most part. 80% of that team was producing really well at all times. That said, the concept of being a top producer is so relative. I've had the chance to work with, I honestly don't know how many staffing companies that I've had the chance to support over the years, but it's a lot. And what it takes to be a top producer at one is totally different than what it takes in another.

Dave Turano [00:18:07]:
There are some companies, they're calling somebody with one account in twelve people a rock star. There are other companies that have somebody who inherited six accounts and they make the most placements as a rock star. The issue I find is that oftentimes there's a lack of diversity. So if somebody goes from top to producer to management, a lot of those people really weren't a top producer. They might have just rode a wave that ended. Now they had to get the hell out. So they get into management. But what's even worse is when you have somebody that wasn't a producer at all that got into management because they just, you know, they were good with numbers or maybe they're great with process, but they totally underestimated what it takes to be effective with people.

Dave Turano [00:18:54]:
And so I think the top producer issue, and then if you have somebody that's a legit top producer that absolutely knows how to make it rain, the issue they typically have is a lack of patience with those that might take more time or that might need more help. But I don't necessarily believe that promoting the top producer is the issue. It's understanding what it takes to create another producer. So if you've never done it and you think it's just about a math problem, you're wrong. And if you think it's just, it's simple, because it was simple for you, you're wrong. You got to meet everybody where they're at. So I think that's one of the main problems. The other issue I'll say is this, and I will not name any names, but I've met a number of companies who have just moved people into management because they're friends, because they've been there a long time and they need to find a place to give them a pay bump because they're afraid they'll leave.

Dave Turano [00:19:50]:
So they give them responsibility. And so that sends a mixed message to the entire organization. And that's where a lot of the problems come up, because the team is looking up at management saying, why is this person responsible for anybody? So I don't know if you see that on your side, but I've seen that a lot more than I care to admit.

Kortney Harmon [00:20:09]:
I have to. I have to. And it's sad. I'm going to switch us gears for a second. We're in tough economic times right now. You know, people always, you know, in these situations, if they're well equipped, they're trying to look, what can I do today to excel myself forward for what's next. Right. So looking ahead in the upcoming year, what do you believe should be top priorities or areas of focus in the talent industry or with executives to help their business grow and succeed? You talked about communication.

Kortney Harmon [00:20:40]:
I think that's going to be a part of this no matter what. Talk to me. What do you think the focus should be on for executives going into the rest of this year and what our economic landscape looks like?

Dave Turano [00:20:49]:
I think the first thing always is where do you want to go? What are you trying to do with this company? Are you looking to just maintain status quo? Are you looking to grow it? If so, where would you like to grow it? Would you like to expand the geography? Do you think that the existing client footprint needs to be expanded? Would you like to get into a totally new industry? Maybe you've only serviced financial services and pharma and you want to get into healthcare? Like, what is it that you think you want to do and how clearly have you articulated that to the team? So that's the first thing is are you clear on what you want? Are you just building a lifestyle business? Do you just want people to maintain what you have? So I think it starts there. But the other thing is, I mean, I think you also have to know where you're at. Every executive ought to know what the current state of their business is. Just because you have five great accounts that spend a lot of money doesn't necessarily mean that those accounts view you as a valuable resource. So where do you stand with them? What do they think of you? What's the long term potential with them? Are they trying to get rid of you or are they trying to introduce you to more opportunities? There's just a general awareness of where you're going and where you're at, and then from there it's easier to make decisions. Do we have the people now that can get us there? Do we need to realign people to focus in this area or that area, and then to give them the support and resources to get that stuff done and get out of their way? So I don't know if that's too generic an answer for you, but that's the first thing that comes to mind.

Kortney Harmon [00:22:27]:
No, I think that's great. Are you seeing people, like, pivot? I mean, I don't know about you, but I think I've seen a lot of people have to refocus on business development, and we oftentimes were thinking that we have to find new logos and that's not necessarily the case, but I've seen a focus shift on focusing on candidate experience where we've not really paid attention to that as much in the past. We're now focusing on, you know, maybe developing key accounts better. We're focusing on new logos. There seems to be a shift, obviously, because we're not drowning in the talent that's coming at our door and kind of that flood of people. Do you see any changes in that regard as you're working with executives and their shift in their business?

Dave Turano [00:23:05]:
I think the biggest narrative that I've heard over the last few years is we got really comfortable and complacent during the pandemic. We rode a wave, business fell into our laps. We made a crapload of money, we took advantage of the PPp loans. We have the best years ever. And now that things are changing, we don't have the skills or we've lost our skills to sell and create new opportunity. And I question whether they have them to begin with, but I think that's where the focus is now, is how do we initiate within our current client base or how do we add if our current client base is going away or receding, how do we go find new ones? And that's where the focus is. And a lot of them are scared and I don't understand. So you talked about AI and we talked about technology and all this stuff that's available to people.

Dave Turano [00:24:03]:
I mirror screens when I coach people, salespeople in particular, I'll mirror my screen with them. We'll pull up LinkedIn, for example, and I'll say, well, tell me about this client, or tell me about why you want to get into that company and how are you going to go do that? I was talking to a guy recently, it's like 6000 or 6500 LinkedIn connections and we started to go through them. I must have gone through 20 of them randomly. He didn't know any of them. So even though he has amassed connections and he's using his tech and he's sending out his automated emails and all that stuff, I'm like, no one knows you and you are afraid to talk to them. So I think that's really where the companies are focused, is how do we actually engage somebody to want to have a dialogue with us? On the recruiting side, the trap is they feel like they have to have the perfect jobs. On the sales side, they feel like they have to have a ton of candidates. And the reality is you don't need anything.

Dave Turano [00:25:04]:
And it's accepting the fact that you can actually initiate communication or start a relationship with somebody with nothing in your hand. And that's what's missing inside and outside of staffing, is there's a fear to communicate, there's a fear to initiate. There's a reluctance to ask a question. And the other thing I'll say, and I'm happy to expand on it later, is I think it's an industry that's fallen into the trap of needing and wanting and trying to find stuff instead of giving and referring and helping. It's gross. It's gross. So I think that's where the focus needs to be, and it is there, but there's a fear associated with it.

Kortney Harmon [00:25:44]:
If that makes sense, that makes complete sense. Talk to me more about the giving verse. We always, when we make a phone call, we feel like we have to provide value. But value is not necessarily a quantifiable thing. It's not necessarily something in our hand today. It could just be the value in the questions that we're asking to help them understand their business better or understand their market better. I 100% agree with the fear. Okay, so let's talk about how do you overcome that? I guess let's start there.

Kortney Harmon [00:26:12]:
And then I'm going to go back into the giving thing, because there was a few things to dissect with what you just said.

Dave Turano [00:26:17]:
Well, I think with the fear, it's all an individual thing. Everybody has a different level of self confidence, self esteem, belief in their value. Some people feel like if they're new to something, that they can't have the conversation because I'm new and I'm still learning. Other people are afraid that they can't deliver. It's. I know what I'm doing, and I've been around a long time, but our recruiting team can't find anybody, so I don't want to make this call. Recruiters might feel that way about salespeople. I've got candidates that buy into me.

Dave Turano [00:26:44]:
They're loyal to me, but you can't get feedback from your clients, so there's a fear to initiate on that end. So those are common fears. Some people are just afraid, like on the recruiting side, they're afraid to even ask for a reference, and most of them ask for the reference wrong. They feel like they have to earn the right to see if the candidate is competent. So they don't ask because they don't want to burn through them. And you've got candidates afraid because they think the recruiters are going to pirate the reference or they're going to. I've given this reference to nine recruiters and nobody, and I haven't gotten a job. I don't want to waste this reference's time.

Dave Turano [00:27:22]:
So fears and associated with that stuff. So that's where I see the fear. But a lot of it stems from the lack of giving, if you spend your time helping people. I just did a podcast with Sean McCourt. He's a friend, he's a former client. He started his business because he gave to people. I was at a funeral the other day, wake. The night before, I met a woman from Los Angeles.

Dave Turano [00:27:51]:
She happened to be at the wake. I'd never seen her in my life. And my wife introduced me to her. She was talking to her and I said, oh, nice to meet you, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my wife said, dave, so and so was just relocated here after 22 years. She comes from the healthcare space and she's trying to establish a network. Do you know anybody? And I'm like, tell me specifically the types of people you want to know. What kind of companies are you interested in? And I'll see what I can do.

Dave Turano [00:28:17]:
And I just, it's as simple as going into my network, making a few calls, sending a few texts, making three introductions in a matter of just a day to help somebody and expecting nothing in return other than this person I'm calling might need help. This person I'm calling on behalf of is going to be thankful. And in the end, I did a good thing. But as a result of doing that every day, I never worry about what people think. If I call them, I never wonder, oh, am I going to be bothering this person or I shouldn't send this email now? Let me wait two months. No, I'm not going to do that. So I think there's a lot of waiting and wondering. And on the 7th call, can I ask for a reference? It's like, are you kidding me? You expect a fee for this candidate that you haven't referenced? You demand the reference.

Dave Turano [00:29:05]:
Look, at some point, if you go to work for me or with me or for my client, they're going to do a backdoor reference on you whether you like it or not. So who are the people that we should know now? So anyway, I'm being a little bit sharp with it, but I just think there's a lot of overthinking and fear that's manifested between everyone's ears.

Kortney Harmon [00:29:24]:
How does our leadership and executives in our industry help change that culture? Because it's a culture. It's driven from top down. How do we help change that narrative?

Dave Turano [00:29:34]:
Stop trying to act like the industry. I mean, the industry's incestuous. Just like banking. If you go to a banking conference, it's filled with bankers that huddle with bankers and compare notes with bankers. Staffing industry is no different. You and I met at a staffing industry event. Who's there? A bunch of staffing industry people wondering what are you seeing? Oh, what are you seeing? What changes have you made to your pay plan? I mean, it's like one giant company with like 6000 different names and it's incestuous. People go from one staffing company to the next staffing company.

Dave Turano [00:30:04]:
They just switch jobs hoping to find something different. It's the same thing over and over again. So I would say stop trying to be like everybody else. Your business is you and your ability to establish your unique relationships with your candidates and clients. It has nothing to do with anybody else. And that to me I'd say is the number one mistake that any company that huddles with their own industry is making is they're trying really, really hard to look like everybody else. It's a disaster. But it just keeps going.

Dave Turano [00:30:39]:
So those that don't do it are the ones that make the money. Those that do do it wonder why isn't all this working? That's my answer to that.

Kortney Harmon [00:30:46]:
I love it. I think that's great. You, I was reading your bio and this kind of goes along with that same concept you talked about, the ability to challenge and questions people's thinking. Share an example of maybe a common misconception or outdated belief. Maybe that you've encountered in our industry or any other, and maybe how you've helped them shift their perspective.

Dave Turano [00:31:08]:
Be more specific. There's so many.

Kortney Harmon [00:31:10]:
You mean on the leadership side or the leadership side? On the executive side, yeah, I mean, we have, we. A lot of, you know, you talked about, you feel like you have to be like everybody else or what other things? Like we've talked about metrics, the big brother concept. There's so many. Whenever we talk about our industry, what are some other things? Or where you've challenged leadership's mindset and got them to think differently?

Dave Turano [00:31:32]:
Yeah, I think part of it is even we went back to metrics. It's using metrics as a tool and a resource to help people see who they are and the progress they're making. Just like the scale, if you're trying to lose weight, the scale is a resource to see. Is my weight moving in the right direction? Just like a batting average is a resource for a hitter that wants to see am I making progress with my contact. De weaponizing data is something and getting them to think through. How do we introduce this as something that's actually good and helpful? The other thing I would say on the data piece, and I can expand beyond data, by the way, is don't leave it up to the team to go find the data, share it in a recurring way so that everyone sees it at all times and talks about it so that they every single week, it's, here it is. And then the managers of those teams should sit down with the people and say, hey, look at the progress, what we've made. Or, oh, here's where we ran into an obstacle.

Dave Turano [00:32:36]:
Let's talk about that. There's that. I think the other things to rethink is don't believe for a second that people don't answer their phones anymore. There's a fundamental belief from leadership down that no, no one answers their phones. It's garbage. It's garbage. But if you believe that it's true, if you believe no one answers their phones, you don't dial your phone. If you believe nobody answers their phones, then you're going to email or you'll in mail and you'll think that, hey, that counts.

Dave Turano [00:33:04]:
And therefore, they didn't respond to that, so they wouldn't have replied to my phone call. So I would say that's those things that showing people, like, if I'm coaching somebody, I'll say, let's get so and so on the phone now. Let me try it. Let me call so and so and prove that you can actually get somebody on the phone. The other thing I would say is helping them recognize that the person you want to talk to is often not the first person you call. You know, if I wanted to talk to Bill Gates, I don't know that I'd call Bill right away or I might not get through to him. I could try the number if he has one, but most likely I know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody that would eventually get me in front of Bill. Like, sometimes the indirect path is more effective than the direct path, especially if your message is weak or especially if there's uncertainty in your ability to deliver.

Dave Turano [00:33:54]:
Sometimes it's those secondary connections that can help prepare you. I think it's helping them recognize that I do a lot of that. So I don't know if this is answering your question, but.

Kortney Harmon [00:34:04]:
No, I think that's great. I think a lot of times you're talking about all of these things that almost need done on the forefront of ever picking up the phone, doing your research, the running joke of recruiters as their private investigators. But we're almost getting away from that and we're not taking the time because we're like, just do things faster. Just pick up the phone. But in reality, you don't. Whenever you're like, oh, I had so many people working, or I did this so many times. Well, I didn't have to make 22 phone calls in a day because I could get what I needed done in five or seven or twelve because the front end work was there. We have this immediate gratification concept in our society today.

Dave Turano [00:34:41]:
Well, the other thing about that, Kortney, is people will say, well, we got to get it done faster. We have to do more. We have to talk to more. It's not true, but the reality is, and we can't slow down. We don't have time to get to know Kortney Harmon. We don't have time for that. It's not true because you could be the person that refers me 20 people. You could be the person that opens six doors for me.

Dave Turano [00:35:07]:
I remember placing a guy who lacked, I forget the skill he didn't have on his resume. I don't know if I can swear he was a pain in the ass. He used to call me all the time. He didn't have this specific skill, but I submitted his resume anyway. I was in sales. I called the client and I said, this guy doesn't have XYz, but I'm submitting him for the following reasons. He's persistent as hell. He annoys me, but this is what I like about him.

Dave Turano [00:35:32]:
And if you want him to have this skill, we can get him an online course. So the manager ends up saying, no problem, that's perfect. Do that. Hired him. This guy referred 26 people to me over the next year without me asking for it. I had another woman. I called her for three years. This is when I was a recruiter.

Dave Turano [00:35:50]:
I called her for three years. She was always happy, always not looking. She ended up opening two doors for totally different clients for me while she was not working for me, while she was saying, no, thank you, Dave, she was still sending me referrals. And I don't see that as the norm in the industry. I think the better people see that and they leverage and they spend time with key people because they know by doing that, it's going to open up more opportunity. That's the biggest miss right now, is a lack of depth in connection, and it kills me inside, but it also keeps me busy. It's the reason I keep getting clients is because this isn't happening.

Kortney Harmon [00:36:30]:
I love it. You actually. You just mentioned a comment, and it tweaked my brain. You talked about getting the person a course, right? As a coach and advisor. What role do you really believe, like, that personal development or continuous learning play on success of staffing and recruiting organizations.

Dave Turano [00:36:48]:
On every person on the planet. It plays a role. And if I didn't read and I didn't listen to podcasts and I didn't watch Ted talks and I didn't watch specialists on YouTube or whatever, I wouldn't even have a business. I would not even have a business. I only have a business because of the books I read and the people I've learned from. I try to read every single day. I listen to a podcast or two every single day on my walk and during my workout. I wouldn't even have a company.

Dave Turano [00:37:20]:
The only reason I have a company. I remember I was working for another organization back in zero nine. That's when I first got into training, and they had their material for sales. We had to teach this material. It was extremely limiting. I can't stand even talking about it because the jargon and the buzzwords just. I can't stand hearing it anymore. But I rarely stuck to the material.

Dave Turano [00:37:43]:
And the guy that ran the company would always. He would bitch at me and say, you got to stick to the book. You got to stick to the book. Like, they don't want to know the book. They want to know how to get it done. And so I also ran a leadership program over there with no material and no book and no course or methodology or anything. And it was in that moment, I'm like, I don't need to work for anybody else ever again. I read enough to run courses for 3 hours or 10 hours or one week.

Dave Turano [00:38:12]:
And I got to tell you, it's important for me. As important for me as it is the staffing industry is to constantly educate yourself. Do you have an interest in what it is that you do? A lot of people go to work all day long, and they don't learn anything other than what happens between nine and five.

Kortney Harmon [00:38:30]:
Do you feel that's a miss from our executive leadership level in today's, in any industry right now, that there's maybe not that focus in that area? I mean, I know it's important to you. I know it's important to me. Sometimes I get tired of consuming content. Just ordered another book, listen to another constant. Do you think that's a miss in just with people in general today?

Dave Turano [00:38:52]:
Well, I think I think there's two. I think there's a lot of misses with people in general. There's always the exception. The people that are thriving in life are doing these things. The people that aren't thriving in life are limited by what they know because they don't have time in quotes to read more or they don't have time to walk, or they don't have time to listen. So it's just people in general, it's the same thing with health. If you don't have time to get sleep at night, well, you know what? The rest of your life is going to be a mess. If you don't have time to take care of yourself, you're not going to have the energy to learn or read.

Dave Turano [00:39:30]:
You're not going to have the patience with other people. So it's like, I think the swing and the miss. If life is an issue, it's where's the focus on health and wellness? Where's the focus on learning and personal development? And if there is no focus there, then work is a grind, burnout sets in, depression sets, and all these other things. So I think just in general, I would just say to anybody that if you're struggling, take a look at what kind of time have you dedicated to yourself and if you haven't and you still choose to spend time here not developing yourself while you're hurting yourself.

Kortney Harmon [00:40:03]:
Yeah. And it starts with them because literally your teams are watching you. Your teams are seeing how you react. Your teams are seeing how you prioritize your time and working in the system or making calls or whatever that looks like they're watching. Just, I mean, I have people watching, but from a podcast perspective and little ears that are at my house, those are the people that are watching.

Dave Turano [00:40:25]:
So I can tell you, just based on what I just was commenting on, is during the pandemic that became so evident during coaching, as the coaching calls or Zoom calls they became were about business. But there was also so much on the personal side that was coming up, and it was then I had a much clearer view of what wasn't going on outside of work. And now that we've kind of gotten back to normal in quotes, it's still very much in the forefront as there are people who, their stuff isn't organized outside of work and often work gets blamed. What have you observed there? I'm curious on your, the reason I bring it up, by the way, is I can only be as effective as somebody's willingness to take care of themselves. And that's usually where every coaching relationship starts, is you taking care of yourself or not? Because if you're not, you're going to hurt everybody in your company, and I'm never going to get anything done with you. So it's about getting their mind right and their body right. But I'm curious, what have you observed?

Kortney Harmon [00:41:28]:
I think COVID made people more human in the idea of realizing what's outside. You're right. You have three kids at home. You're balancing that plus work. I get that you kind of got a glimpse into the window, which was interesting, because that's people's why. You know, you go to the golden circle, you go to the why. That's what makes me tick, is the two little sets of feet that are running around this house beyond my husband and myself. But I also think you're absolutely right.

Kortney Harmon [00:41:53]:
I'm a person. If it's not in my calendar, it's not prioritized, it doesn't get done. And that goes from baseball softball practice, to appointments to personal development for myself, to taking my kids to appointments, to taking my kids to lessons. But I'm. I will admit it, Dave, it's hard. But I am extreme type a. But I know not everybody's like that. But I know that was where I fall to my vices.

Kortney Harmon [00:42:16]:
If I'm not planned, I'm not prepped. My kids aren't prepped. My husband's not prepped. My job's not prepped. It will go to hell in a handbasket if I'm not prepared. So I 100% agree with you. But I think that it's sometimes hard as things are spiraling, people have a hard time grasping that. And my advice to you is start with one straw at a time.

Kortney Harmon [00:42:37]:
I know it's a big bale of hay. It's all over the place. But start with the one thing that you can control and try to pick them up piece by piece.

Dave Turano [00:42:44]:
Right? And everything you just said is so critical. And some would say, well, life isn't all about work, and life isn't all about being on a schedule and like. And that's 100% true. I personally have. I carve out downtime every single day. I have downtime. I decompress. If I don't want to do something, I don't do it.

Dave Turano [00:43:04]:
I also work for myself, so I've got a little bit of latitude there. But an unscheduled life can become incredibly complicated and hard. I love what you said about the scheduling. It's actually. It takes your brain off the hook. You don't have to remember things. And I think in a lot of ways, that's what helped me relax my mind years ago, was using my calendar. So to hear you say that, I think it's a tremendous tool.

Dave Turano [00:43:29]:
And the other thing about the tools is sharing. Share that calendar with your colleagues, share that calendar with your manager and vice versa, so that everybody can see what's going on. It's when people, we started off with the clarity of message, but when people don't know what's going on or they're unsure or confused, chaos and negativity set in. And sometimes just creating that organization and a calendar creates clarity for people. It's not micromanagement. It's clarity. Unless you're trying to hide.

Kortney Harmon [00:43:58]:
And if you don't create a narrative as a leader in your organization, the narrative will be made whether it's true or not. You are absolutely right.

Dave Turano [00:44:05]:
Absolutely, absolutely.

Kortney Harmon [00:44:07]:
I love it.

Dave Turano [00:44:07]:
What haven't I answered for you? What else are we covering?

Kortney Harmon [00:44:10]:
You know what? I guess my last question is very generic. Where we are today, if you had to focus on one thing for our leaders in all of our industries, of course, specifically staffing, what would you tell them to put the focus on going into 2024, the rest of 2024? What's the one thing?

Dave Turano [00:44:26]:
Get to know your people. Because in my experience, the average employee and the average company, inside and outside of staffing, does not feel known or understood or recognized by the people in charge. Right or wrong, if I work with an organization, I usually end up working with the entire organization. It could be a couple hundred people at times. And as a result of that, I end up talking to lots and lots of people. And even people that are succeeding will often say, so and so doesn't quite get it. And so and so is their boss or their vp or their CEO. And I would just say, don't assume that your people feel understood.

Dave Turano [00:45:10]:
Don't assume that at all. Go get to know them and give them the space to give you honest feedback. If you're not doing something or they want something more of you, or they're bothered by something, give them the space to communicate it. I've had plenty of leaders say, my people don't talk to me or they don't share this. And I had one guy say to me, I don't always know where they're coming from. I'm kind of suspicious that they don't come to me. I'm like, what if they did come to you? What if they told you you were the problem? Would you take it personally, he goes, I probably would. I'm like, well, there you go.

Dave Turano [00:45:42]:
That's the problem. So that's what I would say is get to know your people.

Kortney Harmon [00:45:46]:
I love that. And I love that it's not just about your clients and your candidates. That's the third audience. We often forget about that. We often, it affects our business the most is the people that work for us. That's that. It's the people that we work with day in and day out, and we often kind of put them on the back burner and assume it's fine.

Dave Turano [00:46:04]:
Yep.

Kortney Harmon [00:46:04]:
I love it. Dave, thank you so much for joining me today. I love your insights when it comes to executive roles. For our listeners who want to learn more about Dave Dave's work or connect with him, you can visit his website. Dave, I believe it's jcegrp.com. Is that correct?

Dave Turano [00:46:22]:
That's correct.

Kortney Harmon [00:46:23]:
I will put that as well as your LinkedIn profile in the show notes for our audience members. And for those of you who aren't already, be sure to subscribe to the full desk experience and cut the noise with Dave and we'll enjoy hearing more from us and other industry leaders in the future. Dave, I appreciate all of your time today and thank you very much.

Dave Turano [00:46:45]:
You're welcome, Kortney. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

Kortney Harmon [00:46:50]:
I'm Kortney Harmon with Krilate. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Industry Spotlight, a new series from the full Desk experience. New episodes will be dropping monthly. Be sure you're subscribed to our podcast so you can catch the next industry Spotlight episode and all episodes of the full desk experience here or wherever you listen.