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Show notes
In this bonus episode we’ve got something special – an eye-opening conversation with Chris Allaire, founder and CEO of Averity, a leader in IT staffing and recruiting. During a chat with Chris, he dropped some jaw-dropping statistics about the current state of the IT industry, which I knew I had to share with you. From the challenges of an overflowing talent pool to the rise of AI in recruitment, this conversation is packed with actionable insights and expert advice that could change the way you navigate the staffing world.
Sit back, tune in, and get ready for a real wake-up call that dives deep into the numbers and strategies shaping IT staffing today. This is an episode you won’t want to miss!
Transcription
Chris Allaire [00:00:00]:
Well, the fact of the matter is, 46% of the people on LinkedIn are actively looking for a job, and that’s people with their hand raised. So imagine the people that don’t have their hand raised. So that’s the market we’re in right now. I stick to the database. I go to the. Well, it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. Your network needs to be tight. If you’re looking for a job, call your network.
Chris Allaire [00:00:23]:
If you’re looking for candidates, call your network. Get referrals. Network with the people that you’ve known for years. They know you, they like you, they trust you, and you have the same energy with them. I know them, I like them, I trust them. They’re good at what they do. I want to get them in front of the job. So we’re going to start there first.
Kortney Harmon [00:00:42]:
Hi, I’m Kortney Harmon, director of industry relations at Crelate. Over the past decade, I’ve trained thousands of frontline recruiters and I’ve worked with hundreds of business owners and executives to help their firms and agencies grow. This is the full desk experience, a crew late original podcast where we will be talking about growth blockers across your people, processes, and technologies. Welcome to another episode of the full Desk Experience. Welcome to another episode of the full Desk Experience. I’m your host, Kortney Harmon, and today I’ve got an unexpected treat for you. An impromptu episode featuring Chris Allaire, founder and CEO of a verity. They’re a true powerhouse in the IT staffing and recruiting space.
Kortney Harmon [00:01:34]:
Chris and I were actually having a side conversation where he was dropping some really crazy facts to me. We were having a fascinating conversation about, like, the current state of the IT industry. He started spouting off some serious eye opening statistics. I knew right away I had to get it recorded and share with all of you in the staffing world, especially the IT world. So I clicked record on the spot. And folks, the numbers that we’re about to dive into really highlight the challenges plaguing our industry right now. If you’re in the IT industry, you won’t want to miss what Chris has to say. It’s a real wake up call that could change how you approach your work.
Kortney Harmon [00:02:16]:
So without further ado, let’s jump into my conversation with Chris Allaire and unpack these revealing it stats. Let’s listen in. Talk to me about the it industry. Maybe let’s talk about biggest challenges you’re currently facing and how that relates to some of the stats that you sent me, because I was actually blown away by some of the stats that you sent me prior to this conversation.
Chris Allaire [00:02:38]:
Most difficult thing that’s going on right now is obviously, as we’ve seen since the end of 2022, is these ridiculous layoffs that have been going on, but it really seems to be focused on the tech sector now. I know the tech industry went through a massive balloon and created a bubble, if you will, supply and demand, inflated salaries, and other things wrong with that. I mean, it’s the way it works out there. I get it. But it seems like ending 2022, when we went into the economy in 2023, and then all of a sudden the layoffs happened, it just went out of control. And tech was hit arguably the hardest. I don’t think there’s any arguments out there. So there we are.
Chris Allaire [00:03:19]:
So now let’s fast forward towards the end of 2024. So you’ve got these insane number of highly, extremely talented engineers that are struggling. So they’re struggling. Not a lot of jobs are being posted or out there. So the. And again, I’m gonna say being posted or being out there on public sites. So your supply is, your demand for hiring is obviously very low right now. The supply on candidates is very high.
Chris Allaire [00:03:50]:
So you’re on this massive supply demand skew. The second thing is with remote cultures on hybrid versus remote versus full on site, that’s tough. There’s a lot of people that have moved over the last couple of years, right? So when you went 100% remote, I moved from basically Manhattan proper tri state area to Greenville, South Carolina. Now im a different situation, but everybody, my company, we closed our office in midtown Manhattan. Everybody moved. And I cant turn around, be like, hey guys, were going to have an office in midtown Manhattan again because I wouldnt have any employees, including myself, because I live in South Carolina. We’re one of those companies that have embraced the 100% remote. There’s a lot of companies now that are bringing people back on site.
Chris Allaire [00:04:37]:
When you’re back on site, if I’m the average person looking for a job and I’ve moved to South Carolina, I’ve really limited my opportunities to look around. So it’s also become pretty difficult. So that’s thrown some wrenches into it. Now, knowing all this, naturally there are opportunists out there who have created these systems. Wherever there are robots applying for jobs. And what they will do is they will take your background, you pay like $200 like that, and you throw a bunch of keywords and you throw your resume, and there’s a robot that will literally scour the web for jobs. And if it looks remotely close to something that it thinks that matches your keyword search, it’ll customize your resume to the job and blindly submit it to up to 200 applicants applications per month. Now, fun factoids with that.
Chris Allaire [00:05:27]:
So you think you’re like, wow, if I’m an applicant looking for a job, that’s kind of neat. However, if you’re now let’s say 500 people sign up for that service. Now that’s 500 resumes that have just been blasted out to 200 jobs. So you now you have a serious problem on the receiving end of it. On just getting lost. I had a client that was looking for a very specific hybrid job on site in Manhattan. Very specific type of backend software engineer. She ran the ad at 06:00 a.m.
Chris Allaire [00:06:03]:
on LinkedIn. And I know because IM on the stuff at 06:00 a.m. at 650 she had 74 applications. So that means that between 06:00 a.m. eastern time and 650 eastern time, 74 resumes had been applied to this job. Now I don’t know what it’s like out there right now, but I’m willing to bet that there probably weren’t 74 people on the Internet at 615 am trying to get a track on this job. Now if there were, I hope I’m mistaken. So that’s about 1.4 resumes per minute.
Chris Allaire [00:06:37]:
1.4 resumes per minute. She didn’t start her day until 830. She had well over 300 and something applicants in her inbox by the time she opened her email. Now, naturally the next conversation was, how are you going to manage that? And her response to me was, I have no idea. So I was like, okay, listen, how can I help? She’s like, well, I can’t get approval to use you because on numbers alone I have like 350 to 400 people I have to go through. So if I go to finance and say I can’t manage this, they’re going to be too bad. Figure out how to manage it. So she’s like, I need, I don’t know how long it’s going to take me to go through these because I also have a job to do, which is all the other things to do during the day.
Chris Allaire [00:07:21]:
So she’s like, I can’t go through to 350. I knew another internal recruiter. She ran an ad for a remote. Oh, and that you’re getting out of the 350 to 400 applications you’re getting that were on site in New York. There are people nowadays that on their resume because they don’t want to eliminate themselves from a job based on location, are not putting where they live. I would highly recommend. Don’t do that. Put where you’re located.
Chris Allaire [00:07:44]:
Like, well, I don’t want to exclude myself from jobs. I hate to say this, but if there’s a job on site where you live, you’ve excluded yourself because I don’t know where you live. And if I don’t know where you live and I’ve got a burn through 400 applicants, or I’ve got real numbers for jobs that we ran that I’ll get into in a second, how am I going to do this? So you’ve got clients and companies that are out there now trying to fill jobs, trying to use traditional styles through ad response, and it’s just impossible to do it. I’ve had calls from ctos or, like, unicorns that I know, and I’m not going to say who they are, but, you know, she’s like, chris. I mean, by definition, I am a unicorn. I was like, I know. She’s like, I’ve applied to jobs that are literally exactly what I do, and I have not. Like, I’m not even getting a response.
Chris Allaire [00:08:25]:
And then I explained to them, this is what’s going on. And it’s, the response on their end is simply, there’s no way that’s real. And then they look at it, and then typically it’s like, you’ve got to be kidding me.
Kortney Harmon [00:08:36]:
Okay, I have a question. So how are you preparing your team to deal with this? And then how are you talking to your clients? Obviously, that’s something they don’t have time to do. So that’s a great pitch for you guys.
Chris Allaire [00:08:49]:
Exactly.
Kortney Harmon [00:08:49]:
But how are you even your teams to address things like this and manage their clients to this expectation of 1.4 resumes a minute? Because my day is full already. And I know your day is full, especially for someone running a desk. I can’t imagine having the overwhelm. And there’s no question why people aren’t getting responses anymore.
Chris Allaire [00:09:09]:
So preparing a client, just give them data. When you start handling data numbers over like this, like, this is what’s going to happen. If you do this on your own, this is what we’re going to do for you. Now. The difference is, on your own, you’re not managing this one job. Now. Typically, on our desk right now, some of these guys are managing one to five, maybe seven, but they’re all in the same category because we’re separated by niche and technology. So if I’m managing a back end software.
Chris Allaire [00:09:36]:
If I’m managing five jobs in my desk right now, they’re all the same skill set. Now, they might be a little nuances, there could be salary differences, it could be location differences. Obviously the companies are doing different things, but they’re all back end engineers. So I can start talking to one engineer about four different jobs versus watch going through five to seven engineers for one job. So when you start preparing people for those types of things, they already know that they’re going to be better shape. So some numbers that are staggering. So the seven jobs that we filled in the month of August, some were run by ads, some were strictly managed internally within our database. On average, the numbers for candidates that were brought into the system through ads from various sources like LinkedIn, you’re looking at one job brought in 656 applicants, 368, 141, 363.
Chris Allaire [00:10:32]:
So those are just some, some data points on, oh, there was one job for a contract. Python Go engineer brought in 1184 applicants on a data set of seven jobs. The average job received 391.5 ad responses. That’s between an active network team brainstorms, but mostly ad response. 391 candidates per job. On our end, candidates you actually have communication with, dialogue, emails, phone conversation, Google Meets, et cetera, averaged almost 20, just shy 19.93. Communication with candidates per job. After all that actually submitting to the client, which is our job, you can’t submit everybody, and I know everybody wants to be submitted, but it doesn’t work that way.
Chris Allaire [00:11:29]:
Our submittal rate to the client was 5.57 candidates per job, a first round interview rate of 4.3, a second round interview rate of three, an offer rate of 1.29, and an acceptance rate of 1.14, with an average time to fill of 34 days. So our job is to get it from 391 candidates down to one offer to one acceptance, and do that and manage that entire process in a 34 day period of time. Now, that’s seven data sets, seven jobs to give you some numbers to look at on average. And then this is where I think people don’t really understand the actual time it takes to do what we do. When you’re spending time, you’re going to spend on average of about, you got to take a job. There’s a lot of different processes involved, and I’ll summarize them. So obviously you’ve got to get on the phone with a hiring source, take a really tight job order. You’ve got to get a job order written, basically jd a job description written, edited, ready to market to people.
Chris Allaire [00:12:42]:
You got to do your outreach on your list, your network, social platforms, and then you’re going to start getting resumes in. It takes about, on average, about five minutes to review a resume. People you’re reviewing, you got to get calls scheduled. After you’re going back and forth getting calls scheduled. That takes you about two to five minutes per candidate. You’re going to phone interview these candidates, so you’re talking about another 15 minutes on the phone screening candidates after they’ve been screened. You’re going to put together an email, submit them. Then you’re going to get interviews scheduled and you’ve got to prep candidates on interviewing.
Chris Allaire [00:13:16]:
You’re going to take feedback after feedback. Then you get second interviews, et cetera, et cetera. Then you’re getting to the point where decision to hire, you’re talking pre closure closure, post closure, checking in after onboarding. Those are just an example of time it takes.
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Chris Hesson-Ad [00:14:18]:
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Chris Allaire [00:14:38]:
If you have a on a set of like seven. What? I have seven data sets. On average of 30 minutes to take a job or a call, etcetera. You’re going to spend, on average, about 70 hours per job to fill each one of those jobs. There are some jobs where it took 94 hours. We figured there was other jobs where it took 37. The difference between 94 hours spent versus 37 hours spent where we had 656 applicants to go through versus 24 people that we knew. Obviously time to hire a lot faster.
Chris Allaire [00:15:16]:
So you’re looking at 70 hours on average. That’s to fill seven jobs. So our average time to fill is 34 days, 70 hours. It’s about. You’re spending about 2 hours a day per job. So if you want to do some math, to fill seven jobs in 34 days, it’s going to take you 2 hours per job is 14 hours a day to effectively fill seven jobs in 34 days. That’s in the tech space. So if you have a team internally that’s willing to take on those numbers, you’re in good shape.
Kortney Harmon [00:15:55]:
But what if they don’t? Because I don’t want to work 14 hours a day and I was in the tech space.
Chris Allaire [00:16:00]:
This is why, with everything that’s going on out there, why teaming up with a third party again? A company like a verity is critical because you know these numbers cannot be managed. I’ve just picked up three new clients in the last two weeks because I’ve been posting a lot of this data and a lot of my clients referrals, and one of them was referral from the New York CTO club. And he told me flat out, he’s like, I saw some of the data you posted. I have four openings right now. He’s like, the numbers that I saw from you scared the living hell out of me. I’m not going through this. I don’t want to see 600 people. I don’t want to see 300 people.
Chris Allaire [00:16:38]:
I don’t want to see 7000 clicks. I want to see five candidates, interview them, make a decision to hire, make an offer, get an acceptance and get them started. That’s what we do. So in the tech space, you have to know what you’re doing. There’s too many nuances in the tech space to think you can fill a tech job while filling a sales job, while filling an advertising job, while filling, you know, the director of consumer relations. If you’re not talking to tech people all day long, you don’t know what they’re doing. So in the tech space in general, you need to find somebody who is highly specialized, who knows what the heck they’re doing and can get this done quickly.
Kortney Harmon [00:17:21]:
What other things? I know we talked, obviously, just because we had a conversation prior to about a case study using Krill. Aidan, how do you do things in this environment with that many candidates? Faster? Obviously, you’ve talked about your process at Verity, which I love. I’m a process nerd. How do you do things faster and at scale with that many people?
Chris Allaire [00:17:43]:
We are highly organized. So the last ten years of my company, we’ve been so focused on teams, so we know who’s in data engineering, who’s in software engineering, who’s in DevOps, who’s in security. We’ve created buckets, if you will, list very deep and narrow. And it’s basically like a very siloed approach. So if you’re back in software engineering, you’re using Python. We already have notes on that person. We’re going to those people first. Now that could be, we can narrow it down to 25, we can narrow it down to 100, but that’s where we’re going first.
Chris Allaire [00:18:15]:
People that we’ve known, people that we’ve worked with for years, people that have gone through numerous interview processes at other organizations, candidates that we’ve placed five, seven years ago. So we’re going after that audience first to see if they’re qualified, interested and available for the job. After that, we’re reaching out to our first tier network on whether it be LinkedIn, whether it be social media. So we’re going after those companies. We’re going after those first. Still sticking in the database. There may be some people we haven’t talked to in a long time. Maybe they didn’t make the quote unquote the list or the first cut or the starting lineup, if will, for whatever reason, go one of those people, hey, got a copy of your resume in our database.
Chris Allaire [00:18:53]:
We already have their email address, we have their phone number, we have notes on them. So we have things. So sticking within the database first. After that, then you’re going out to the more of the social audiences, and we all use LinkedIn, so let’s call a spade a spade. Now, the problem with LinkedIn is just, it’s too much, in my opinion. And if I try to find a Python software engineer open to look for a new job in my database, I’m going to have narrowed it down to about 300 something people. If I try to do that on LinkedIn, it’s 46,000 candidates. How am I going to go through 46,000 people in any type of effective timeline? It’s impossible.
Chris Allaire [00:19:35]:
So I’m immediately looking at that number, and all I want to do is just close my window as quickly as possible and get the hell out of Dodge. So I’m not going there. Well, the fact of the matter is 46% of the people on LinkedIn are actively looking for a job, and that’s people with their hand raised. So imagine the people that don’t have their hand raised. So that’s the market we’re in right now. I stick to the database. I go to the. Well, it’s not what you know, it’s who you know.
Chris Allaire [00:20:01]:
Your network needs to be tight if you’re looking for a job call your network. If you’re looking for candidates, call your network. Get referrals. Network with the people that you’ve known for years. They know you, they like you, they trust you and you have the same energy with them. I know them, I like them, I trust them. They’re good at what they do. I want to get them in front of the jobs, but we’re going to start there first, and then after that, then we’re going to go to the.
Chris Allaire [00:20:26]:
Just throw the net in the water and see what lands. And I got to tell you, got to do it. If it’s something crazy, random, unfortunately, it’s things you have to do. But I think it’s really no. Work is smart versus working hard. Stick to your database, stick to your network, talk to those people and you will get people hired.
Kortney Harmon [00:20:48]:
And a lot of people are so stuck in the post and pray mentality, like, get more, do more. And that’s not where you’re living your success and your best life right now. With a verity.
Chris Allaire [00:20:59]:
No, I mean, if I want to work were the numbers I had. If I want to spend 97 hours on a job, 94 hours on a job, I’ll run an ad. If I want to spend 37 hours on a job, I will reach out to my network.
Kortney Harmon [00:21:12]:
That’s crazy. The numbers that you gave are crazy. And just to think that, I mean, we see it across the board, the bots that are applying how AI is changing our industry, not always for the good either. And how hard it is going to continue to be as we move forward with the human connection, because that is what makes us different in our seats and what we’re doing, it’s not. Yes, speed is a part of our industry, always will be. But having those authentic connections, having the integrity of the data that’s in your systems and like you said, work smarter, not harder, is, I think, where we’re going into 2025 and beyond.
Chris Allaire [00:21:50]:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I think more than ever, human connection is more important. The amount of fake emails that you get, the amount of spam that you’re getting, the amount of AI written crap that just floods your inbox all day long from people who saw your name and your title and where you live on LinkedIn, and then they, like we talked about, they send you that email. Hey, Chris, I see you live in Greenville. Have you eaten at Buzz cake factory? I’m like, that’s not even a restaurant. Or someone’s like, oh, I heard you get caught behind scooters all the time. I’m like I’ve never seen a scooter on the street. What the hell are you talking about, man? Come on, stop it.
Chris Allaire [00:22:23]:
So it doesn’t work. Just the human connection part is really what we’re, I know it’s, but it’s still what we’re looking for. It’s what people appreciate, especially in the recruiting business. You know, when you’re, when you’re on the phone talking to a hiring manager, you need to understand the job. It doesn’t matter. Now I’m taking notes on the job and I’m going to use AI to help me organize my notes. I’m going to use it 15 to 20 times to iterate my job description. I’m going to help me with the market.
Chris Allaire [00:22:48]:
I’m like, you know, take, you know, market this job for me in a 1 minute pitch. So I’m going to use that. Oh, I need a report. I’m going to input data in this thing and say, analyze this, get me back in a report that can help me. I’m going to use it for things like that. I’m going to use it for things like invoicing. I’m going to use it for all the things that it can be used for. Where automation is key.
Chris Allaire [00:23:09]:
I’m not going to use it to initiate. I can’t stand the AI generated emails. I don’t get them. It’s all you. You spend more time editing the email than it just takes you to like write it. Hey, got a job that I wanted to see if it interests you. Here are some bullet points in the job. Let me know your thoughts.
Chris Allaire [00:23:28]:
That’s it. That’s all you need. I know you’re a python engineer. I’ve got a back end python job. You know, this is the company. Here’s what they’re doing. Hey, if you’re interested, let me know. Obviously not AI written.
Chris Allaire [00:23:37]:
It took me about five minutes to do that. I’m good. The human connection is never going to go away. And then, especially once the process starts, once the rubber hits the road, it’s not going to go anywhere. So we’re always going to be in pretty good shape. And I think more than ever what I’m hearing from people is just by reaching out to my first year connections and saying, hi, checking in. I know it’s been brutal out there. I hang in there and they’re always like, thanks, Chris.
Chris Allaire [00:24:01]:
Confused with what’s going on. You won’t believe this. Like, I talked to a CTO the other day, emailed me. He’s like, you won’t believe this. I had to lay out five people and next year weve already been slated to hire five people. Im like, youve got to be kidding me. Its just like, what do you want me to tell you, man? Im a cog in the wheel. Im trying to build products.
Chris Allaire [00:24:18]:
We cant push anything out because I dont have the engineers for it. Im trying to cut budgets to make the numbers look better and the next year im just going to have to replace those people again. So thats going to happen on a global scale in my opinion. When it does, youre going to need people who are really freaking good at this job to know how to help, use tools where they can be used, but know how to take a job order, understand a job, pitch the job and do the work that necessary to do.
Kortney Harmon [00:24:45]:
All right, my last question and then I’ll let you go. What is one piece of advice for anybody in the IT space that you have for them through the remainder of 2024 and into 2025?
Chris Allaire [00:24:57]:
Talk to as many people as possible. Talk to as many candidates as possible. Network your butt off. That’s how you’re really going to learn what’s hot, what’s not, what people are using, how they’re using it, why they’re using it, and then that’s what’s necessary to really understand what’s going on in the tech space. I don’t know, not anything else. I just talk. I’ve always in a recruiting business, whoever talks to the most amount of people wins. So stay active, talk to people.
Chris Allaire [00:25:25]:
Find out what’s going on out there, what are they going through. Keep that network active.
Kortney Harmon [00:25:30]:
I love it. Chris, thank you for the time today. The stats that you gave were amazing and I think really shed a light on a bigger problem that we have in the industry and how we should be adjusting our sales for the future.
Chris Allaire [00:25:45]:
It’s been my pleasure. Thank you.
Kortney Harmon [00:25:49]:
I’m Kortney Harmon with Crelate. Thanks for joining the full desk experience. Please feel free to submit any questions for next session to [email protected] or ask us live next session if you enjoyed our show. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen, and sign up to attend future events that happen once a month.